Does anyone think that current drumming is really watered as far as drumiing from the 80's and early 90's? Has drumming become too "artistic"?

My quick non-answer is it really depends on the corps and year, but for the most part I do think drumming has watered in the general sense. There are many factors involved and a perfect illustration is comparing Star of Indiana's 1989 and 1993 shows. This is the same corps only four years apart, and Star '93 is considered early 90's, but they were ahead of their time and exemplifies current battery writing trends.

Star's 89 book was thick, meaty, tasty and musically appropriate. (This is one of my all-time favorite books.) This was a monster line that had the hands to pull this monster book off, still playing on mylar mind you. The writing wasn't written just for the sake of playing the rudiments, but it contained them all and them some. The Scottish drumming influence can be extremely difficult to clean due to difference in interpretation but these guys weren't afraid to keep the meat in and play it well. This was back in the day where playing flam drags, for example, wasn't something people hyped because EVERY line was playing them, and quite well I might add. Everyone goes gaga over lines that have a lot of flams in their book nowadays but that used to be the norm. See how many lines actually have an exercise that works flams in '05. Not many. Heck, in '93 we played an exercise called 12/8 - 10/8 that we'd start the check without flams and add flams as the embellishment. As we got into other embellishments we'd make the check pattern flammed.

Star's 93 writing was much more sparse and contained more simplistic rhythms. I do think adding white space to a book can make it more difficult so kudos to this line for being so consistently clean all summer. Although when you only play for about 5 minutes of an 11 minute show you don't have as much music to clean as lines that have more notes, but I digress. This was the beginning of simple impact point rhythms for more of a visual impact. There's nothing wrong with adding visual GE to a show but books have become so predictable nowadays I've listened to audio in recent years of lines and during a first listen, I kid you not about this, I knew exactly what they were going to play at times, or was very close. Part of this is being familiar with the percussion arranger's as well as the corps' style so it's not like I have ESP or anything.

Leave it to Rob to make a post like this! Great topic selection for your first thread!


I agree with everything Hulka said, but I will offer my perspective on another factor that has made drumming more "artistic" in recent years. That is the development of indoor drumming.

I can recall winter drumline circuits in southern cal being performed on the 50 at a football field. The obvious goal was to show off some hard beats and skills that your line had. As the years went on, they moved that INDOOR and some lines started adding artistic elements that made "meaty" drumming a bit more difficult. That coupled with the fact that playing indoors made it difficult to discern all out rudimental drumming that you seen in alot a lot lot shows around DCI today.

It used to be that some DCI drummers spent the off season doing a winter drumline somewhere. For Rob and I, it was spent doing RCC in the fall with a bunch of other guys from SCV and BD. As time has evolved, as with the popularity of indoor drumming, a high percentage of DCI drummers are now doing winter drumline in the off season. But one could look at this as being half empty or half full. Is someone who does winter drumline doing DCI in the off season? Or is someone who does DCI doing winter drumline in the off season? One could look at it either way. Back to the topic at hand.

A good portion of the writing style used in winter drumlines has made its way over to DCI. Case in point, The Concord Blue Devils. You can see the writing style, especially in the past 4-5 years, that is evident in RCC being the same as BD. There is an obvious reason for that. But to really look at it closer, why would two organizations such as RCC and BD, who are obviously one in the same as far as im concerned, have two different styles because of the venue? It makes perfect sense to just translate one to other. But since indoor drumming demands more of an "artistic" approach just to stay competitive, the drumming has in fact been watered down to say an 86 or 88 Devils style of drumming.

In this respect, you can't take DCI style of drumming and apply it to the indoor arena. It hasnt worked in the past and will not work in the future. However, corps such as BD have taken the winter drumline style and applied it to the field. And to their credit, it has worked out to their success for the most part. But still, you take a walk around the lot, and you can see that these guys still have hands like the old guys in Rob's, Hulka's and my days. Its just not the norm anymore to take that lot show and put it on the field. Gone are the days of drumlines moving up and down the field in a block ramming shopping spree style books . Now days, drumlines are moving like the hornline. The drill writing for alot a lot of corps with respect to the drumline is difficult.

One could argue that while Star 93 had incredible drumming, it was "artistic" and "musical" in its writing. One could argue it was because of the selection of music, or one could say that it was because of the incredibly difficult drill written for the drumline. For those of you who have not seen the Star 93 show, but have heard it aurally, take yourself to the closer. You know all the incredibliy difficult bass passages and splits you hear going on? Along with the snarline and tenors playing exposed rolls and isolated attacks? Thats hard in its own right? Now do it playing at 180bpm minimum, while splitting the drumline in two and spacing them 30 yards apart. Thats what you had with Star 93 during that section. Bass line was split: 1 and 2 on the left...3, 4 and 5 on the right. 30 yards apart, marching at 180bpm and splitting ridiculous stuff.

So I think musical selections call for the style of writing for the show, but on the whole, I think drumming in DCI has become too indoor oriented. I dont say "artistic" because most of the drumming on the field you see nowdays has been done somewhere indoor. Personally, I dont like seeing that. Im an "old school" guy. I crave the days of Cavies 91 and 92 and 95. Blue Devils during the Tom Float years of 82-90. The wicked stuff that Crossmen was playing in 91 and 92. Garfield's/Cadet's drum books from 87, 89, 92 and 93. SCV's wicked drum book from 91 and especially 92(the best lot line in the history of DCI in my opinion). And of course, the great drumlines from VK from 92-95. You wont see that style of drumming anymore just because the writers for the most part nowdays were a part of that initial indoor drumline movement as players.

So thats my long answer. However, I still enjoy watching DCI drumming. Always have, always will.


* On a side note to everyone, RBassVK aka Rob/Bobby is a veteran bass drummer. Him and I marched together a few years with RCC...as well as VK in the early 90's. A great drummer. A great knowledge of bass drumming. A great friend. Welcome to drumlines.org Rob!

First off thanks for the props Bernie. And thanks to you Hulka for responding to my first thread.

Hulka, Like you I enjoyed the Star '89 book (a Hannum classic). I also enjoyed equally enjoyed the Star '93 book (for me it reminded me of Garfield '86). Star really pushed the envelope in '93 and if you remember with the '93 show people either really loved that show or didn't care for it too much. I have always believed that the '93 show was at least 5 years ahead of its time. But what was cool about drumming back then was that you could close your eyes and listen to a recording of a line and be able to pick which line it was based upon the tunning of the drums, the notes that were being played and also the clenliness of the line. It's a shame that real cool flam passages, inverts and cheese have been replaced with fast 16th note patterns and rolls.

To me it seems that lines have lost there individual "personalities" and a lot of them sound real similar. I don't know, maybe I've become the "old guy" that you would run into that would tell stories of how he had to play everything off the left and how poor the equipment was compared to what I was playing on.

As for the indoor circuit, I went to my first indoor show last year (Championships 2004 in San Diego). It was all right however I found it to be real "gimmicky". I swear I thought I saw someone bring out a kitchen sink (HaHaHa).

Anyways, "Old School" rules and I'm out for now.

I Just think that it because more complex. And more hard core. Because from the 80's shows- the 90's shows you can see and hear the style changes.

I beleive that that mid 80's until about 94 95 was the pinacle of the activity. I have to agree with Bernie, Rob, and Hulka on this. I am not as old as they are but I have been around the activity since 1987 when I first went to finals. Not a bad year to start hearing and seeing drum corps let me tell you. I would never say one is better. I think better is a totaly subjective thing. I know I have talked to cats that marched back in the 70's and they think that anything after 82 is crap. "Why do they ahve to march so much? I guess if you have no chops you march more eh kid?" An actualy converstaion with someon in Bridport CT two years or three years ago. I think programs were not afraid to play outside the box and takes risks. I honestly beleive that the activity was more self serving then in that it seemed less about winning and more about actualy educating the player/performer AND the person. But again this is a totaly outside view. I was not marching big corps then so I don't realy know I guess. I think that if you look at a BD book in 00 and compare it to 90 or you compare an SCV or Cavies book from 02 to 92 I honestly think the books would be much meatier. I remember when my cousin marched Cadets in 93 and my brother was marching Star in 93. Talk about some great arguments at Thanks Giving! I remebre watching those lines in rehearsal and in the lot. Amazing stuff.
I think lines still have distinctive sounds but its usualy a situation of what corps sounds like BD other than BD or who is writting like Cavies this year. Or who has the SCV tuning scheme. It would be intersting to take a book from the mid the early 90's and take a book from the the early 2000's and have the players of today and yester year play them and rate the difficulty. I mean I think DCI has gone to much the way of WGI. The interpretive body movement form BD in 03, amping, TALKING and narration. ITs all too much. I know things need to evolve and whenever someone is critical of how things are and compares them to how they used to be someone always chimes in with "well then lets go back to rotary valve bugles and less artistic guards and bring back the american flag on the field". I think the activity needs to evolve but how far can something evolve before its not longer anywhere near the same? NASCAR has evolved from the late 40's until now. The cars are different, the rules have changed but damn it if its still not some guy racing around in a circle. We need to decide how far astray we are willing to let the activity go in the name of "keeping up with the times".

Nice comments Mick, and you're welcome on the props Rob!

I just wanted to bring up one more point that I think solidifies my opinion about indoor drumming trends influxing into DCI drumlines. When you look at Cadets show from this year, especially the "drum speak" part, most people would think "How original! How did they ever come up with that? What made them think of doing that?" The fact is that Mission Viejo High School did that in the winter show in 2000 I believe. And if im not mistaken, Tom Aungst went on record saying that he was going to take Mission's idea and incorporate it into this years show. Please correct me if Im wrong folks. Where the old school guys are going to argue is how can a judge actually "judge" a verbal chant(which is a big part of their drum feature) as part of a percussion score, while every other drumline in DCI is playing actual notes on a drum for their drum feature.

But I also some new school guys would say that its part of what drumming is nowdays. Those are the guys who say that DCI corps shouldn't actually start any camps until after WGI finals is over in April. That way drum corps camps don't interfere with winter percussion! You know who you guys are who say that!


BLASPHEMY!


oh yeah...isn't it funny how everything kind of goes back to Star 93????? Ha ha ha

Well indoor line isn't in the same places as DCI. But if you mean as far as players I pretty Sure they can get around to both since the season is rapping up. They don't over lap that much.

- Content edited for being off-topic. -

Its so great how everything comes back to Star. I feel bad for anyone who was not able to see that show live or any of Stars shows realy. Although 87 is not realy in my favorites list. I hate it when cats try to say corps should not have camp until WGI season is over. Why should DCI be dictated to by what I consider to be their spin off? It is obvious that it is more than possible to march indoor and still march a corps at any level. BD is good example. I know they have members that also march at RCC. I aslo know there are some kids from RCC that are marching Troopers(so I am told by an inside source). It realy aggitates me when people try to say that. I say get over yourself indoor crowd. I know alot a lot of people that march indoor to keep up their chops for corps. I don't know many people that march corps to keep up their chops for indoor.
As far as drum speak is concerned. I talked to Neal Sylvia after a show in Lynn(its the show that used to be the manning bowl I think) and he spoke candidly to me about that. "I do not think the drum speak adds anything to the show and frankly I don't think anyone but the GE folks should be even evaluating it. I personaly did not realy know how to comment on it" There you have it folks. Just one mans opinion. But an educated one. I would have to agree. Last time I checked the human voice was not in the percussion family. Not even in an orchestral setting in which the piano is grouped with the percussion. Its unfortunate that the trend right now seems to be on interpritive body mocement(over done by BD for sure) and drill responsibilities rather than on playing. I wish it was 10 or 15 years ago man.

The voices should not be on the Percussion sheets, but they had better be on the Music analysis sheets. Timing, articulation, and the balance and blend should all be judged during that section.

Getting back to the original question, I see it this way (and you can take it with as much salt as you want, since I am nowhere near as knowledgable about the intricacies percussion as you guys.):

Back in the day, and I'm talking 50's-60's and part of the 70's, the drum books were all about putting as many rudiments into the book as possible with the emphasis being on cleanliness of the line. There was very little musicality involved as everything was loud and at a specified tempo of 120 bpm. Just listen to any recording of Santa Clara, Cavaliers, 27th Lancers, Hawthorne Caballeros or the New York Skyliners from that time. Raucous, in-your-face, play your tuchus off.

As time progressed into the late 70's early 80's, the books became more musically related to the hornlines, yet retained a lot of the rudimentary base. They were just doing more dynamics and blending with the horns.

In the late 80's to early 90's, there seemed to have been an even mix of rudimentary demand as well as mucicality of the book. The percussion parts were matched pretty well with the hornlines and there was still quite a bit of rudimentary demand, maybe not as much as the previous decade, but it was still very much in evidence. In my opinion, this was the best balance of the old school/new school ideas.

For the last decade or so, the percussion books have leaned very far to the musical side and dropped quite a lot of the rudimentary base. There have been some major innovations as far as ridiculous tempos and metric changes Tomfoolery that are undeniably difficult (some of the stuff that Bret Kuhn writes into his exercises, let alone the show books, send my head spinning) and they are having a lot more pit involvement and contribution than ever before, which is a good thing. With that said, I do have to agree with Rob in that the rudimentary content of today's books have seemed to become a series of paradiddles and its derivatives. The flam has all but disappeared except for a few phrase endings that are followed by kicks or visuals.

Ultimately, what I would like to see is that the writers and arrangers of the future take today's tempos, metric changes, and muscial sesitivity and re-introduce some of the rudimentary demand and in-your-face attitude from the 60's. It would be more like the mid-80's to early-90's on steroids.

BTW - I saw Star '93 live, I've relistened to the recordings, and I've rewatched the DVD. I'm still not impressed with anything other than when the line splits up on the field. To each his own.

Bass4_NCHS - I would suggest you refrain from posting in this thread since you have no idea what the posters in this thread are saying.

Ironman I would have loved to be in that Thanksgiving dinner conversation back in '93. Its funny how you talk about that dinner argument considering the Star and Cadets drumming style derive from Thom Hannum.

Middle Age Man I can see your point about Star '93 (like I was saying either you really like the show or you really don't care for it). To me the '93 Star show is like the movie Pulp Fiction. The first time you watch it's like huh??? But there is something about it that makes you watch it again and when you watch it you start to catch things that you missed the first time and the next thing you know your hooked. But anyway, my point was that the Star '93 show was the turning point as far as the "artistic" change of the overall show concept.

After thinking about it for a little bit, look at the end of BD's show in '92. They showed a little shades of what was to come in the not so distant furture. And they took it to the next level in '94 when members of the now defunct Star visual staff went over to BD for the '94 season.

As far as musical books go, I have one show for you. SCV 1984. To me that is the granfather of the musical drum book. Hardimon pushed the envelope back then with a tasty combination of meat and substance.

As far as mid-west drumming goes, I have one show to point to. '89 Cavies. Before that show, drumming was pretty much dominated by the west coast. Dudes would come west from all over the country to be in a west coast line (particularly Devils). After '89, Cavies began a quick descent to becomming a drumming powerhouse. But all this brings me to my next point.

This might bother a few people BUT drumming how we know it now is in one way or another influenced by Tom Float and Ralph Hardimon. I say this because pretty much all instructors of today were either in a Float line or helped teach a Float line at one time or another either in Devils, VK or even when he used to help teach at UNT back in the day (Then again I'm slightly biased having been in a Float line). The same with the guys that were in the Hardimon lines of old (SCV and BK).

But back to '94 Devils. If you look at that show overall, it was very fast and kind of gimmicky (I hope nobody takes offense to this) as compared to all of the BD show that came before that year. With a fresh uniform look and a totally different type of show, BD had a banner year and helped change DCI as we knew it. It seemed like after that show, every other Corps was trying to catch the lightning in a bottle.

It seems that after the "fast" show became the norm for drum corps combined with the ultra tight tunning of drums that cleanliness and substance in drumming took a real big hit. But not everthing was for the worse. Basslines have become much improved as far a splitting parts up goes.

I'm gonna wrap it up now with one last observation. Tone quality and technique have taken a back seat to playing fast.

One last thing to the youngsters out there "PLAYING FAST DOES NOT EQUAL COMPLEX".

Old school and playing it off the left rock and I'm out!!!

I have to agree with the Float and Hardimon thing but I must add Hannum into the mix. Just look at some of the caption heads this. Colin McNutt defiantely a Hannum kid and Brian "Tink" Tinkel also a Hannum kid. I would say for sure that Float, Hardimon and Hannum have realy influenced the activity.
Its funny how tuning schemes seem to go in cycles. In the very late 80's(88 and 89) you start to hear the snare line get realy cranked up. But with the appearance of kevlar I am not surprised. Before that everyone was double or even triple hooping the plastic and mylar heads to get the tuning up. But the early and mid 90's were just out of control. I would describe the snare sound from then as "counter top". It was like the staffs at the time were like "if more is better than too much is just enough". Things started coming back down around 97 or so when Remo had what we now know as the Black Max in its prototype form with a few corps. The late 90's saw us cranking tenors into a tuning scheme that in my opinion is realy more of an alto voicing rather than a tenor voice. BD is a prime example of this tuning. I also agree that attention to tone quality and uniformity of style has also taken a real hit. Apparently playing fast singles is where its at. Where are the flam passage? I mean how many times can you hear a line play ten thousand variations on paradiddles or rolls into fast singles? I know I have seen it more than enough. Especialy up here in Spartans country.
I have to say its nice to hear from informed corps guys who have been around for a while. Especialy you VK boys. That is my favorite corps of all time. The very first .wav I ever downloaded was of the 94 tenor line the next one was the accent tap exercise which I would kill to be able to hear again and be happy forever if I could get the music for it.

Welcome Rob.
'Mick

Thanks for the welcome Ironman. It's nice to see some thought put into my original question. I'm glad I'm getting some good responses as oppossed to the one line " your mamma" stuff I see people put up.

I'm gonna agree with you with the Hannum addition. Some of my favorite stuff is his Garfield work between '85 - '88 (although I don't believe that they deserved a perfect drum score in '87. You can hear mistakes on the audio recording). I would also love to get a recording of any '94 VK line stuff (Played #2 bass in that line).

Even though I'm VERY new to the whole spectrum of DCI, I would have to say I agree with everyone here by saying that Drumlines from those days . . . Just . . . Were the sickest things I've ever seen. Look at SCV /92 and their Tenorline, or BD from '95 to '99 . . . You just don't see Drumlines like that anymore. It's just so sick.

I think I can offer a unique perspective on this topic. I was first introduced to drum corps in 1984 and was instantly hooked. In 1989 my dream of marching Drum Corps final came true. I finished my drum corps career in 1991 and, although I continued to watch the finals broadcasts for a few years, pretty much lost touch with what was going on in drum corps. I went to college (that had no marching program until the year after I graduated), got a job and did all the other "real life" stuff.

My interest in drumming was rekindled this year after my best friend asked me to help him build a "drum line program" at a small school where he teaches math. I thought it would be a good idea to take the kids to a drum corps show to get them motivated and give them an idea of what a drum line should be. So, off to Orlando we went.

Having not been to a show for over ten years, I was expecting to hear some drumming that would blow my mind. If lines were doing cheeses, flam-fives and other hybrid rudiments back in my day, what insane new variations was I to hear now? I was somewhat disappointed. It seemed hard to find a flam in anyone's show. I remember comparing drum lines by how many notes they could ram into their book. Yes, we tried to be musical back then, but more emphasis was put into showing off chops.

I have not used the word "see" until now, only "hear". To be honest, I didn't give much thought to what I would "see" drum lines doing. What I did see was amazing. Stick heights have gotten insanely high. I remember when playing something at eye level was considered an incredible feat. Now I was seeing lines playing over their heads! Also, the drill for the battery was much more intricate and difficult than a lot of the stuff we did. Splitting up a line during a roll or other difficult passage seems common place these days. Visually it was much more exciting.

Now, I'm not saying old school is better than new school or vise versa. Nor am I saying that what is being played now is easy. It is easy to see that players today have incredible hands, feet and minds. It seems to me that there is more emphasis today on the visual aspect and less on showing off your lines chops. I believe, like so many other things in life, these things work in cycles. In another ten years I think we will be seeing more notes rammed into the book and less visual stuff, only time will tell.

Well that's my two cents, for what it's worth.

It's good to see another defunct crops veteran on this site. I guess you're right bizbob, hopefully drumming clean notes come full circle. While marching fast drill is cool, it sure does take a lot away from the audio part. Like you, the first drum corps I ever heard was on a tape (BD 1983) and it was what I "heard" that wanted me to work hard and make a corps line. I used to have drum corps viewing parties at my house the day finals came out and when it was finished I would count the days until next year. Now, It's not such a big deal to me to see the show. Tone quality and technique have taken a big hit (in my poinion). I think I enjoy the watching parking lot show more than watching the corps perform. I hope that someone with buck the current trend soon, and start a new trend by drumming "clean" tough meat.

I'm really disappointed. NOT ONCE has anyone mentioned "demand" being taken off the sheet in '84.

As soon as that happened, it opened things up for the "East Coast"/Hannum style of playing, which actually started with Garfield in '83 and took off in '84. (you guys were about 2 years late with your '86 ness.)

The styles also changed with the advent of the Kevlar heads. Santa Clara proto-typed them in '89 and it took the manufactures about 2/3 years to build a drum to stand up to it (Pearl 91) and it took the writers and players about 3/4 years to figure out how to write for it and play on it.

Lines lost their "individual personalites" in the mid 80's when people started corps hopping. When corps went from a more local activity to the national (and now "ring chasing" mentality) Back in the day (HA) the Bridgemen sounded like the bridgemen because they all grew up in the same neighbor hood and learned from the same guy. The same was true of SCV with Sanford and The Cavies etc. Then in the 80s people started to travel to be in corps...and staffs started chaning. It used to be that you worked with one corps and stayed there and other corps didn't want anything to do with you...now it's not uncommon for a guy to teach 3 or four corps in 4 years...look at Lee and Colin.

I can remeber when Brian Mason left Cavs for Phantom...and Cavies and Phantom used to (and still do to a certain extent) hate each others guts. Now everyone's all nicey nice and a guy can leave one corps to teach another and take half the line with him. Fortunately and unfortunatly the "free agent mentality" is everywhere these days...and that's what's watering down everyone's identaties.

Sorry for the rant!

Just to clarify a few things, Vanguard prototyped the Remo Falam in '87. Also, Premier unveiled the free-floating snare drum in '88 which Star used in '89. The Blue Devils used essentially the same snare drum in '89, only rebadged as a Yamaha since Yamaha owned Premier at the time. You're right about Pearl launching the FFX in '91 to the masses but Vanguard did prototype that drum in '90.

You make some good points, in fact, the center tenor this year for Phantom marched Cavaliers '02-'04. When I was marching a move like that would have been blasphemus.

I stand corrected. It was '87 (the second russian year) I can hear the show, but the numbers get mixed up anymore. You are also correct with the Premier, which made sence because they had "the pipe drum tip" back then as well as the being owned by Yamaha. Wasn't there a year of
"bridge" lugs in there for Cavies before they went to the SFZ?

Nobody mentioned "demand" being taken off the sheets. That and the "build up" vs. tick system is what really allowed the writing to change.

You ask me, I like a mixture. I like music that fits with the horns and pit. I like parts that aren't too easy, and aren't extremely hard. My idea music is stuff that's impressive, and entertaining.

Yeah, the load dispersing bridge casings (now used on Yamaha basses) were used by Cavaliers, Blue Devils, Madison Scouts and Dutch Boy in '90/'91, and '92 again by the Blue Devils.

Even though demand is not on the sheets anymore listening to judges tapes over the years the judges are still taking that into account. But as already stated, the demand isn't just in the music anymore. Judges reward lines that are doing crazy drill all while still playing clean, so even though the actual notes aren't demanding, the music and movement combined are.

I do think writing has changed since the tick system was dropped but really that should have had the opposite effect. Without ticks you'd think the writing would be more beefy nowadays since they won't get counted off for every little mistake so the writing could be more risky.

I thought that the Demand subcation had been integrated into the Music Analysis scores.

Ticker, you make a lot of good points especially about jumping corps. You used to join a corps based upon if you liked the theme of the coprs and also for the instructor. For example when I marched VK, I never really cared for VK the corps. The reason that I marched there was because I always wanted to be in a Float line. There were quite a few of us that were there for the love of Float. Not to toot my own horn, but I probalbly could have gone and marched somewhere else, but I felt a stron loyalty to Float and wanted to put him back on top. In '93, we even had guys who marched Devils come and march VK to be in a Float line.

I also can remember when you could tell the different styles of drumming in the mylar days. The east coast always seemed to tune their drums loose and play really slurred as oppossed to the west coast where we cranked up the heads and played everything a little tighter. Even on the west coast there were two distinguished styles. SCV had the more legatto style utilizing 3 heights while BD had a more staccato sound utilizing more of a 2 height method of drumming. VK in the 80's had an east coast influence with Matt Savage as their instructor due to his days with the Bridgemen. Mid-west had distinct sounds as well. The Cavies had a very regimented sound. The Scouts always drummed on the back beat. And Phantom, well to put it gently (and I hope I'm not offending anybody) just sounded old and out of date. Star on the other hand was a non factor in drumming until '89 being always a Chameleon and changing their sound.

The late 80's and early 90's really did change drumming forever with the invention of the Remo Falam's and free floating snare shells. But with the invention of the falam head came the problem of the fellas striping their wrists out playing on the hard surface. Now gone was the "playing through the drum". Sure the sound of the kevlar head is awesome, but you could cheat a little bit while drumming and I think that's where playing with good technique and the "shallow" sound of individual playing has come to be.

Don't forget though that Star '85 - '88 was Delucia, if you listen to 85 it sounds like a brigmen line playing brigemen notes.

Back before the mid 80's I think corps promoted staff up through the ranks...you marched there for years and then if you were the best, you taught there...the raised you to come back and teach....Dennis and Pat Patrillo and Dubinski
Hannum and Aungst
Its all traced out in one of the "history" thread (Hulka, a little help here...)
but then the guys who were "raised" didn't wait around, they went off to teach somewhere else...which is when/why the distinct still started to get wattered down.

T.

Yeah, thats the one!

I recommend everyone checking out the VicFirth site, particualarly the interview with Hannum, Float and the Delucia piece on the history/evolution of things.

Way cool stuff.

first off, I'd like to say that this thread is definitely an eye opener. it's nice to heard or read the different insights of corps vets other than my instructor(he marched 27th Lancers in '85).

whenever he and I talked about the difference from when he played, he always says that every was meatier and ballsier (i.e., playin things that some lines now wouldn't even attempt) something on my own that I've noticed is that a lot of the playin was roll based. first show that comes to mind is Vanguard '87, alot a lot of extended roll passages and since '00, I haven't seen anything close to that.

a few years ago when I was really gettin into corps, I was able to see a vid of the Top drumlines from the '70s to the late '80s, it was different from hearin the difficult books from the present day corps then watchin Bridgemen, 27th Lancers, and various other corps throw down some insane stuff. I was never graced the chance to see VK or Star, so sorry...haven't been exposed to them yet.

If you guys haven't seen Phantom's line from this past season(2005), then check it out here. They are definately in a style of some early 90's "old school" style drumming and attitude that we have been talking about here. At least in my opinion. It makes sense though...look at who teaches their line Feel free to disagree or agree if you want.

http://www.pearldrum.com/04_nuhom/PRFinalsWeek.mpg

I think they have a nice mix of both styles going on there. Perhaps this may be the shift back to "old school" we were talking about. I didn't get to see Phantom this year so this was a nice treat. Thanks for sharing Bernie.

It would be cool to see some cool notes played again. Hopefully it happens sooner than later.

Did you see that happening in the video Rob? Did you see it?

Yeah I saw it. Looks like they had a smoking line this year. What did they place in drums?

PR tied with Cavs for second in drums finals night.

One thing I was thinking about the difference between old and new school drumming is time. The new school is all about playing with the metronome and the players are much better at playing in time then some of the old school guys. Sure there were individuals or even full lines back in the day that could play in time but not nearly as consistent as what's currently happening. As it turns out, the west coast style of drumming was notorious for playing out of time but what was cool is it was on purpose AND it was clean. What always amazed me too was a line would hang a phrase or add gaps before singles, yet it would all line up with the corps. I guess when you practice being out of time enough everyone goes with the flow.

I started my drum corps career almost exactly when use of a met became common practice. As much as the chirp of a Dr. Beat makes me cringe to this day, it definitely separated the men from the boys. While my sense of time is not perfect it did hone it enough to better hear not only when the line was out of time, but also when individually I was pushing or pulling. Let me tell you, this also helps tremendously in teaching so you can tell your students more accurately what they need to do to play clean with the line.

Hulka, it funny how you talk about hanging phrases. I can recall when BD use to play a 16th note single combination excercise there was a gap big enough to drive a bus through between the 16th note and the single. I remember one of our techs that had marched BD saying it was so everybody listening would be able to tell the difference between the two. And you had to bring up that damn Dr. Beat. We didn't use it for drumline practice until '94 when Rennick got there. I hated it at first until we started beating everybody in execution including the big boys. I'm mixed on Dr. Beat. I think that if you start playing without it, it helps everybody to listen in and play together as a cohesive unit. When you bring in Dr. Beat, I think guys tend to listen to the chirp rather than listen in. If you can clean your parts to the chirp that great. But in real world playing, its all about using your ears, adjusting and knowing the the guy next to you so well that you are on the same page in your adjustments.