Does anyone think that current drumming is really watered as far as drumiing from the 80's and early 90's? Has drumming become too "artistic"?

My quick non-answer is it really depends on the corps and year, but for the most part I do think drumming has watered in the general sense. There are many factors involved and a perfect illustration is comparing Star of Indiana's 1989 and 1993 shows. This is the same corps only four years apart, and Star '93 is considered early 90's, but they were ahead of their time and exemplifies current battery writing trends.

Star's 89 book was thick, meaty, tasty and musically appropriate. (This is one of my all-time favorite books.) This was a monster line that had the hands to pull this monster book off, still playing on mylar mind you. The writing wasn't written just for the sake of playing the rudiments, but it contained them all and them some. The Scottish drumming influence can be extremely difficult to clean due to difference in interpretation but these guys weren't afraid to keep the meat in and play it well. This was back in the day where playing flam drags, for example, wasn't something people hyped because EVERY line was playing them, and quite well I might add. Everyone goes gaga over lines that have a lot of flams in their book nowadays but that used to be the norm. See how many lines actually have an exercise that works flams in '05. Not many. Heck, in '93 we played an exercise called 12/8 - 10/8 that we'd start the check without flams and add flams as the embellishment. As we got into other embellishments we'd make the check pattern flammed.

Star's 93 writing was much more sparse and contained more simplistic rhythms. I do think adding white space to a book can make it more difficult so kudos to this line for being so consistently clean all summer. Although when you only play for about 5 minutes of an 11 minute show you don't have as much music to clean as lines that have more notes, but I digress. This was the beginning of simple impact point rhythms for more of a visual impact. There's nothing wrong with adding visual GE to a show but books have become so predictable nowadays I've listened to audio in recent years of lines and during a first listen, I kid you not about this, I knew exactly what they were going to play at times, or was very close. Part of this is being familiar with the percussion arranger's as well as the corps' style so it's not like I have ESP or anything.

Leave it to Rob to make a post like this! Great topic selection for your first thread!


I agree with everything Hulka said, but I will offer my perspective on another factor that has made drumming more "artistic" in recent years. That is the development of indoor drumming.

I can recall winter drumline circuits in southern cal being performed on the 50 at a football field. The obvious goal was to show off some hard beats and skills that your line had. As the years went on, they moved that INDOOR and some lines started adding artistic elements that made "meaty" drumming a bit more difficult. That coupled with the fact that playing indoors made it difficult to discern all out rudimental drumming that you seen in alot a lot lot shows around DCI today.

It used to be that some DCI drummers spent the off season doing a winter drumline somewhere. For Rob and I, it was spent doing RCC in the fall with a bunch of other guys from SCV and BD. As time has evolved, as with the popularity of indoor drumming, a high percentage of DCI drummers are now doing winter drumline in the off season. But one could look at this as being half empty or half full. Is someone who does winter drumline doing DCI in the off season? Or is someone who does DCI doing winter drumline in the off season? One could look at it either way. Back to the topic at hand.

A good portion of the writing style used in winter drumlines has made its way over to DCI. Case in point, The Concord Blue Devils. You can see the writing style, especially in the past 4-5 years, that is evident in RCC being the same as BD. There is an obvious reason for that. But to really look at it closer, why would two organizations such as RCC and BD, who are obviously one in the same as far as im concerned, have two different styles because of the venue? It makes perfect sense to just translate one to other. But since indoor drumming demands more of an "artistic" approach just to stay competitive, the drumming has in fact been watered down to say an 86 or 88 Devils style of drumming.

In this respect, you can't take DCI style of drumming and apply it to the indoor arena. It hasnt worked in the past and will not work in the future. However, corps such as BD have taken the winter drumline style and applied it to the field. And to their credit, it has worked out to their success for the most part. But still, you take a walk around the lot, and you can see that these guys still have hands like the old guys in Rob's, Hulka's and my days. Its just not the norm anymore to take that lot show and put it on the field. Gone are the days of drumlines moving up and down the field in a block ramming shopping spree style books . Now days, drumlines are moving like the hornline. The drill writing for alot a lot of corps with respect to the drumline is difficult.

One could argue that while Star 93 had incredible drumming, it was "artistic" and "musical" in its writing. One could argue it was because of the selection of music, or one could say that it was because of the incredibly difficult drill written for the drumline. For those of you who have not seen the Star 93 show, but have heard it aurally, take yourself to the closer. You know all the incredibliy difficult bass passages and splits you hear going on? Along with the snarline and tenors playing exposed rolls and isolated attacks? Thats hard in its own right? Now do it playing at 180bpm minimum, while splitting the drumline in two and spacing them 30 yards apart. Thats what you had with Star 93 during that section. Bass line was split: 1 and 2 on the left...3, 4 and 5 on the right. 30 yards apart, marching at 180bpm and splitting ridiculous stuff.

So I think musical selections call for the style of writing for the show, but on the whole, I think drumming in DCI has become too indoor oriented. I dont say "artistic" because most of the drumming on the field you see nowdays has been done somewhere indoor. Personally, I dont like seeing that. Im an "old school" guy. I crave the days of Cavies 91 and 92 and 95. Blue Devils during the Tom Float years of 82-90. The wicked stuff that Crossmen was playing in 91 and 92. Garfield's/Cadet's drum books from 87, 89, 92 and 93. SCV's wicked drum book from 91 and especially 92(the best lot line in the history of DCI in my opinion). And of course, the great drumlines from VK from 92-95. You wont see that style of drumming anymore just because the writers for the most part nowdays were a part of that initial indoor drumline movement as players.

So thats my long answer. However, I still enjoy watching DCI drumming. Always have, always will.


* On a side note to everyone, RBassVK aka Rob/Bobby is a veteran bass drummer. Him and I marched together a few years with RCC...as well as VK in the early 90's. A great drummer. A great knowledge of bass drumming. A great friend. Welcome to drumlines.org Rob!

First off thanks for the props Bernie. And thanks to you Hulka for responding to my first thread.

Hulka, Like you I enjoyed the Star '89 book (a Hannum classic). I also enjoyed equally enjoyed the Star '93 book (for me it reminded me of Garfield '86). Star really pushed the envelope in '93 and if you remember with the '93 show people either really loved that show or didn't care for it too much. I have always believed that the '93 show was at least 5 years ahead of its time. But what was cool about drumming back then was that you could close your eyes and listen to a recording of a line and be able to pick which line it was based upon the tunning of the drums, the notes that were being played and also the clenliness of the line. It's a shame that real cool flam passages, inverts and cheese have been replaced with fast 16th note patterns and rolls.

To me it seems that lines have lost there individual "personalities" and a lot of them sound real similar. I don't know, maybe I've become the "old guy" that you would run into that would tell stories of how he had to play everything off the left and how poor the equipment was compared to what I was playing on.

As for the indoor circuit, I went to my first indoor show last year (Championships 2004 in San Diego). It was all right however I found it to be real "gimmicky". I swear I thought I saw someone bring out a kitchen sink (HaHaHa).

Anyways, "Old School" rules and I'm out for now.

I Just think that it because more complex. And more hard core. Because from the 80's shows- the 90's shows you can see and hear the style changes.

I beleive that that mid 80's until about 94 95 was the pinacle of the activity. I have to agree with Bernie, Rob, and Hulka on this. I am not as old as they are but I have been around the activity since 1987 when I first went to finals. Not a bad year to start hearing and seeing drum corps let me tell you. I would never say one is better. I think better is a totaly subjective thing. I know I have talked to cats that marched back in the 70's and they think that anything after 82 is crap. "Why do they ahve to march so much? I guess if you have no chops you march more eh kid?" An actualy converstaion with someon in Bridport CT two years or three years ago. I think programs were not afraid to play outside the box and takes risks. I honestly beleive that the activity was more self serving then in that it seemed less about winning and more about actualy educating the player/performer AND the person. But again this is a totaly outside view. I was not marching big corps then so I don't realy know I guess. I think that if you look at a BD book in 00 and compare it to 90 or you compare an SCV or Cavies book from 02 to 92 I honestly think the books would be much meatier. I remember when my cousin marched Cadets in 93 and my brother was marching Star in 93. Talk about some great arguments at Thanks Giving! I remebre watching those lines in rehearsal and in the lot. Amazing stuff.
I think lines still have distinctive sounds but its usualy a situation of what corps sounds like BD other than BD or who is writting like Cavies this year. Or who has the SCV tuning scheme. It would be intersting to take a book from the mid the early 90's and take a book from the the early 2000's and have the players of today and yester year play them and rate the difficulty. I mean I think DCI has gone to much the way of WGI. The interpretive body movement form BD in 03, amping, TALKING and narration. ITs all too much. I know things need to evolve and whenever someone is critical of how things are and compares them to how they used to be someone always chimes in with "well then lets go back to rotary valve bugles and less artistic guards and bring back the american flag on the field". I think the activity needs to evolve but how far can something evolve before its not longer anywhere near the same? NASCAR has evolved from the late 40's until now. The cars are different, the rules have changed but damn it if its still not some guy racing around in a circle. We need to decide how far astray we are willing to let the activity go in the name of "keeping up with the times".

Nice comments Mick, and you're welcome on the props Rob!

I just wanted to bring up one more point that I think solidifies my opinion about indoor drumming trends influxing into DCI drumlines. When you look at Cadets show from this year, especially the "drum speak" part, most people would think "How original! How did they ever come up with that? What made them think of doing that?" The fact is that Mission Viejo High School did that in the winter show in 2000 I believe. And if im not mistaken, Tom Aungst went on record saying that he was going to take Mission's idea and incorporate it into this years show. Please correct me if Im wrong folks. Where the old school guys are going to argue is how can a judge actually "judge" a verbal chant(which is a big part of their drum feature) as part of a percussion score, while every other drumline in DCI is playing actual notes on a drum for their drum feature.

But I also some new school guys would say that its part of what drumming is nowdays. Those are the guys who say that DCI corps shouldn't actually start any camps until after WGI finals is over in April. That way drum corps camps don't interfere with winter percussion! You know who you guys are who say that!


BLASPHEMY!


oh yeah...isn't it funny how everything kind of goes back to Star 93????? Ha ha ha

Well indoor line isn't in the same places as DCI. But if you mean as far as players I pretty Sure they can get around to both since the season is rapping up. They don't over lap that much.

- Content edited for being off-topic. -

Its so great how everything comes back to Star. I feel bad for anyone who was not able to see that show live or any of Stars shows realy. Although 87 is not realy in my favorites list. I hate it when cats try to say corps should not have camp until WGI season is over. Why should DCI be dictated to by what I consider to be their spin off? It is obvious that it is more than possible to march indoor and still march a corps at any level. BD is good example. I know they have members that also march at RCC. I aslo know there are some kids from RCC that are marching Troopers(so I am told by an inside source). It realy aggitates me when people try to say that. I say get over yourself indoor crowd. I know alot a lot of people that march indoor to keep up their chops for corps. I don't know many people that march corps to keep up their chops for indoor.
As far as drum speak is concerned. I talked to Neal Sylvia after a show in Lynn(its the show that used to be the manning bowl I think) and he spoke candidly to me about that. "I do not think the drum speak adds anything to the show and frankly I don't think anyone but the GE folks should be even evaluating it. I personaly did not realy know how to comment on it" There you have it folks. Just one mans opinion. But an educated one. I would have to agree. Last time I checked the human voice was not in the percussion family. Not even in an orchestral setting in which the piano is grouped with the percussion. Its unfortunate that the trend right now seems to be on interpritive body mocement(over done by BD for sure) and drill responsibilities rather than on playing. I wish it was 10 or 15 years ago man.

The voices should not be on the Percussion sheets, but they had better be on the Music analysis sheets. Timing, articulation, and the balance and blend should all be judged during that section.

Getting back to the original question, I see it this way (and you can take it with as much salt as you want, since I am nowhere near as knowledgable about the intricacies percussion as you guys.):

Back in the day, and I'm talking 50's-60's and part of the 70's, the drum books were all about putting as many rudiments into the book as possible with the emphasis being on cleanliness of the line. There was very little musicality involved as everything was loud and at a specified tempo of 120 bpm. Just listen to any recording of Santa Clara, Cavaliers, 27th Lancers, Hawthorne Caballeros or the New York Skyliners from that time. Raucous, in-your-face, play your tuchus off.

As time progressed into the late 70's early 80's, the books became more musically related to the hornlines, yet retained a lot of the rudimentary base. They were just doing more dynamics and blending with the horns.

In the late 80's to early 90's, there seemed to have been an even mix of rudimentary demand as well as mucicality of the book. The percussion parts were matched pretty well with the hornlines and there was still quite a bit of rudimentary demand, maybe not as much as the previous decade, but it was still very much in evidence. In my opinion, this was the best balance of the old school/new school ideas.

For the last decade or so, the percussion books have leaned very far to the musical side and dropped quite a lot of the rudimentary base. There have been some major innovations as far as ridiculous tempos and metric changes Tomfoolery that are undeniably difficult (some of the stuff that Bret Kuhn writes into his exercises, let alone the show books, send my head spinning) and they are having a lot more pit involvement and contribution than ever before, which is a good thing. With that said, I do have to agree with Rob in that the rudimentary content of today's books have seemed to become a series of paradiddles and its derivatives. The flam has all but disappeared except for a few phrase endings that are followed by kicks or visuals.

Ultimately, what I would like to see is that the writers and arrangers of the future take today's tempos, metric changes, and muscial sesitivity and re-introduce some of the rudimentary demand and in-your-face attitude from the 60's. It would be more like the mid-80's to early-90's on steroids.

BTW - I saw Star '93 live, I've relistened to the recordings, and I've rewatched the DVD. I'm still not impressed with anything other than when the line splits up on the field. To each his own.

Bass4_NCHS - I would suggest you refrain from posting in this thread since you have no idea what the posters in this thread are saying.