To all instructors, judges, or actually anyone for that matter, I was wondering what the general concencus was for "visual dynamics" in the front ensemble. Most are in favor of them, but a few are adamantly against them stating "You wouldn't see them doing that while playing in a symphony orchestra." I, myself, am totally in favor of them. Let me know what you all think.

i am completely in favor of it. i think that it is one of the few mays that we get through to people. in order to play a piece of music, wether it be a solo, in a symphony or on the field, that you really have to feel the piece and really get into it. i myself do it all the time.

I don't see what the problem is with it. I've seen symphonic and percussion ensemble pieces that incorporate visuals. Those that are against it and say it isn't traditional must realize that once upon a time, mallet instruments themselves were new and atypical.

I am against the visual dynamics because when you think about it how can you get the whole pit to do it not just one person. Some people either forget to do it or do it differently. When a pit can do it perfectly or close to that I would say I am wrong. I have not seen up to today one pit that has done visual dynamics the way I want to see them.

I am for. Yay on the pit who do it boo on the pit who can't do a visual

I'm kind of in the middle. I'm all for the technique to visually show the character of the music (i.e. bringing the mallets up more slowly rather than snapping them up on a slow piece.) However, I'm not a fan of lots of body movement, etc. I have played under instructors who were very into the visual aspect of the pit and others who liked the players to show no emotion at all. I personally fall more to the side of less emotion, although I don't see anything wrong with a little as long as it isn't overdone.

i suppose i could be against it if it was done horribly, out of place, ya'll look like idiots, something like that. i don't think it's something that should be forced, i mean, when you're bobbin your head to a song in the car, you're being natural (usually). so if it's something like that, cool, if it's like the little 90 year old white guy listening to snoop, trying ever so hard to be "cool" then there's a problem

If you're talking about everyone in the pit simultaneously getting lower behind a board while you're playing softly, etc. then I'm totally against it. I think it usually looks too contrived and corny. I've had to do it, and I didn't like it. It felt unnatural. I felt like it was cheating because even if some people weren't playing the proper dynamics, it wasn't as obvious if they were doing the body movement correctly. It seemed like the excess body movement detracted from the quality of the playing and the technique.

However, I'm a fan of showmanship. I think that things like appropriate facial expressions that correspond to the music do add to the show and allow the performer to communicate with the audience better. If the performer truly understands the music and experienced enough, then they should be able to easily emote the piece without resorting to corny visuals.

All very good and valid points. But just to be clear, we are talking about "Visual Dynamics" not the pit doing mallet flips and twirls and stuff. And let us assume for the sake of arguement, that if visual dynamics were done in a group that it would be according to the individual players part. That way when a unison ppp section comes in, the effect is very noticable with all players. (Especially if it's followed by a crescendo to ff.)

Even orchestras take into account what the audience sees.

While on tour in Japan, one of the Israeli Philharmonic's concerts was going to be broadcast on Japanese TV. Zubin Mehta, the conductor, asked one of the percussionists what mallets he was using for a particular, very prominent bass drum part.

The percussionist looked over at his tray table at the mallets he had been using all along, and instead picked up a pair with bright red heads and showed them to the conductor. Mehta said, "Good. It's color television."

So, even big–shot conductors recognize what the audience sees will influence what they hear.

By the same token, one of the dudes in the percussion studio where I went to school forced himself to move around while he was playing because people told him he was too stiff. But when he moved around and trying to look more emotive it just came across as forced and he looked ridiculous.

I'm against it. To me it just looks fake. A Few front ensembles do it in Colorado, but most don't for that one reason. I don't know, it just looks like the players have been told exactly how to react to the music. My instructors are completely against it. Yes they want us to perform and groove and show that we like what we're playing. But they want us to do it on our own. If we feel the phrase is coming to a peek we move around how ever we feel the need to. Or if the groove is solid and we feel it, we move however we chose or feel at that moment. We don't choreograph anything as far as visual dynamics are concerned. Now yes the visual director might ask us to do a few things together, but thats totally different.

You can tell when the person is doing and moving for their own groove and not what they have been told. I do this all the time. I moved to the music because inside it feels great and I just go in a different world while staying in the world that is around me to pick up tempo changes or little mistakes that might come across.

The thing with visual dynamics is that many people are forced to do it and some don't want to. When I teach my pit I am not going to show them how to move. That is something the player has to learn by themself. It's weird but it's true.

Suppose you have students too introverted and shy to move on their own? Or suppose the music doesn't adhere to what they would normally move to? I feel that encouraging it/teaching (I will never use "forced") it helps some students to get more involved in the actual piece and henceforth appreciate the quality of the work while building a respect for the composer and/or arranger. What do ya think?
(God my spelling is horrible.)

The big reason why people like drumlines are beacuse of the tricks. We challange loacl drumlines to a trick challange. Drumlines are suppose to be fun to watch and listen to. Concert band is too formal for tricks. Where as Marching Band is more relaxed and casual. That kinda why they perform at Football games. not only do drumlines do visuals but trumpets, flutes, most of the instruments including Tubas. Just look at UMD (University of Maryland)
Pit could do tricks too but since all of our "little, little experianced, people" are in pit we try to keep it to a minimum. Visuals also help you in competion. some Judges will award points for visuals. And if we weren't supposed to visuals then what's colour guard doing in band? (never liked them anyway most of them a little annoying girls with flags that hurt if you piss them off. Ow)

Again, I'd like to remind everyone that we are talking "VISUAL DYNAMICS" in the pit. NOT pit players doing "visuals" as the drumline does (stick twirling, etc.)

My instructors are also big on communication which is a good thing. We don't tap off outloud anymore for that reason. Forcing people to do visual dynamics isn't going to do any good in that point. Like Divalish said it will make the shy person a little more comfortable. We have a person like that in our pit and she has been comfortable because of the communication. What is the good of visual dynamics anyway?

I don't personally like manufactured or mandatory visuals to help get the dynamics across. I feel that if the players are really into the music then they will automatically move in such a way that the intensity and emotion will be communicated on it's own.

Much in the same way as concert pianists tend to get closer to the keyboard during soft sections and farther away for louder sections. Those movements are natural, not ochestrated. Also, as the players move up and down the keyboards during fast runs, that helps convey the frenetic movement all by itself.

Are there times when something needs to be forced? Well, I guess there could be two or three spots in a show, but I don't think that the entire show should choreographed.

Also there are some techniques that involve the piston stroke which is a quick but more in depth stroke up and down. Sometimes when you are close to the boards during a soft or piano section then you need to use that stroke and you probably or won't be able to do it. I am a pianist myself and the movements that I did came naturally to me while I was playing. Not one time did my teacher had to tell me to move with the music because it comes from the heart. "The music from the heart cannot be taught."

I don't mean choreography. I'm just asking; isn't a big forte-piano section in a show have inceased intensity (to the audience) if the visual dynamics are put in?

im kinda in between. im against it because id rather my kids learn to actualy play dynamics by changing heights, strength, ect. But if they can prove to me that they have that musical ability, then im all for them lowering thier bodies and such during a soft section. It totally adds to the visual repetoire of the pit, which is (sadly) lacking. I teach my kids that the music on the page are merely guidelines. Im here only to teach them the technique and skills for them to do what they want with those guidelines and if pit visuals are what they want to "get into it", then so be it.

No problem. Based off of your response, I'd say you and I are on the same boat. Glad to help.

I think it's important to implement visual dynamics as a way for an ensemble to emote to it's audience. However, there is a difference between group "A" who does it because they are instructed to and don't fully understand the purpose...and group "B" who understand that it is a way to allow for the ensemble to get "in" to what they are playing and convy the emotion of the piece to those listening/watching. I believe that the visual aspect of the performance should be brutally precise, as if it were notes written within the music. Different colors within the music can dictate the approach of the section, while different dynamics and phrasing dictates the visual dynamics. To be sucessful, you must find the happy medium and understand how to apply it.

The discussion does, however bring up the popular discussion on whether or not such a performance takes away from the overall experience. Does body movement distract or attract the audience? Again, if done poorly...it will obviously distract the audience. I think we've all seen a performer who's body movements border on the verge of falling out of their seats, but they are most often the exception and not the rule. I believe that it can be used effectively and within the boundaries before it becomes over-bearing and "corny". With everything, moderation must be used.

Someone asked me to comment on my thoughts of "visual dynamics" in the front ensemble. I've seen this post before, and purposefully avoided it for the fact that it is a very opinionated driven thread.

So at the request of this person, Im going to put my two cents in. Keep in mind, this is MY opinion...so don't bash me because you disagree. Even if you do, I really dont care. Its my opinion! HA HA

In a nutshell, I am against the notion of "visual dynamics". I dont say COMPLETELY, because of the natural tendency of body emotions that is generated from performing. Ive seen alot a lot of front ensembles, especially high school front ensembles, that just crack me up. Its like watching something so un-natural when it comes to playing. When I was in drumcorps, seeing things like that was rare. Granted that was more than 10 years ago, but even today amongst DCI front ensembles, it is still rarely seen.

My pit instructor, Cathering Float, had a great philosphy about visuals. Her belief was that visuals in the pit were too distracting to the music. "Its all smoke and mirrors" she would say. To learn some sort of visual movement to accompany the music was so unnatural. I agree completely. There are plenty of natural movements that come when you are playing something. Think about this: when you are listening to something on the radio, or youre at a concert do you notice how sometimes your head just starts to bob? or move a little to the beat/groove of the music? Thats natural. Now, imagine someone telling you to do that purposefully, at a specific time, and in unison with everyone else. Thats unnatural.

As a spectator, when I see an entire keyboard section drop down virtaully to their knees with their faces inches above their keyboards during a pianissimo passage..and then rise up DRAMATICALLY to forte, I get turned off. I lose interest. I dont care how good they are.

As a former performer in DCI and countless music ensembles, I was taught to just play the music. Whatever emotion was evoked from the performance was great and added to the individualism of the performance. Now Ill tell you, who you perform in and what kind of response you get is going to have a great impact on the "visual" emotions generated from your body. Performing in a small ensemble in front of 20 people might not generate a ton of emotion. However, performing in front of 35-40,000 people at night, under the bright lights-(while they are on their feet screaming for you)will generate a HUGE visual element and emotional response. You know what Im talking about right Divalish?
You get into it, your body moves....its NATURAL. Not rehearsed or put-in the show to be cool. Thats my opinion, someone asked for it, so there it is. Thank you.

Thanks for putting tears in my eyes, Bernie. However, I must say that it was hard sometimes to get into the music when you're staring at so many blank faces and had to generate your own excitement. But, that was part of the challenge!

I am totaly against it in a marching ensemble setting. I think it looks really dumb as Patty said. It drives me nuts because it looks so unatural when the whole front ens]ensemble is doing it. Now in a concert band setting I'm for it. Do what ever you want when your playing by yourself, because your going to add movements naturally where you want and it looks ok.

I think only a very select few movements in the pit should ever be choreographed. One example: Say the pit has sparsely placed unison chords--maybe one every four beats, on different notes every time. The shift from one chord to the other should be defined to be on a particular beat. Visual dynamics are not effective and IMO look quite bizarre.

I'm for visual dynamics. I think they look great. I mean look at the players in Blast. In Marimba Spiritual, which i guess u can consider their pit feature as opposed to battery battle. That marimba soloist and all of the other percussionist put their soul into the music. My favorite visual dynamics in it are at the end of Marimba Spiritual when then the soloist just start goin crazy with glissandos and at the end of Malaguena when they get a close up of Nick Angelis on timpani, man he's killin em. Visuals don't have to be forced. Just tell your ensemble, "Express what the music expresses" I played timpani and a piece called the Maelstrom in concert band. Robert W. Smith specifically notes that the timpanist should be a "Bombastic solo". I think it makes it look like the players love playing the music, but thats my opinion.

I agree that visual dynamics aren't very big out here in CO (i'm from Wheat Ridge). Our instructors are completly against it and understandably so. I really doesn't look very good. Much like keeping your mallets moving with the tempo. those 2 things alone annoy me to no end

This reminds of something I learned from my mallet teacher. I don't remember what it's called or who made it up, but it's something like "5 positions of marimba playing", it's not really a "visual dynamic", but it looks like (very cool) choreography when you do it properly. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, post it here, or a link, or something. My explaining it would be pointless.

I am in favor of "Visual Dynamics" only to the point that it doesnt hinder your playing or the impact of the performance. As divalish mentioned, I too think it looks a bit corny to see an entire mallet section get low to the keys to play. But at the same time I dont want to see little tin soldiers playing marimba or timpani. If you watch some of the best classically trained percussionists, and ensembles such as Nexus (note: clasically trained does not mean classical literature) you will always see them moving with the music and using their entire body to play. It is only natural to move when we play the cool music we play. I feel that it does add to the performance if your musicians are "in to" what they are playing. But again, natural movement is much better than staged movement.


Scott Sheets

I think we all agree on a more "natural" than mechnical" form of expression, but people have to remember: YOU CAN'T TEACH EMOTIONS!!! Moving up and down or side to side isn't a form of expression. Chances are the reason why students aren't getting into the music is because of poor technique or they don't understand the history or dynamics(musically and non-musically speaking of what they are playing. To me Visual Dymanics are like a Neopolian complex..people trying to make up for something they are lacking. Staring at a drumhead/bar isn't going to make anything better , just make people think "What are they doing?" and any movement that makes one uncomfortable or enables proper technique is a no.no..Happy 4th, Bless you all, and practice hard.

I think visual dynamics is important as long as you don't screw up your proper technique while doing it.
Ex. Leaning forward to make it piano or leaning back for forte
(Incorrect)
Bending knees to show piano or going more on your tippy-toes for forte
(Correct)

Ok, I challenge everyone to go to the Parking lot of some DCI shows this summer to watch some ensembles warm up... (Perferably, Cadets, Cavies, SCV, Blue Devils, and Bluecoats. No disrespect to any of the other fine DCI/DCA corps, but these are the ones on top of their game)if you see anyone getting on their "tippy-toes", bending knees, smiling, leaning over the keyboards, and other things people have defined as "Visual Dymanics" then I'll be suprised. Please post what you see happening ,because most the things people are descibing I've only found in High school ensembles. No disrespect. Love you guys

As far as I've seen, those pits don't do any of that stuff, at least not in the lots during warmups. However, when they begin doing show music, you see "performing", not choreographed movements. The closest I've seen to that is when the Cavaliers look to the center and make eye contact with the rest of the pit, smiling and nodding. Especially during their ballads. I understand that this is part of the communication aspect between players to get them to play together, however it does add to their look. Cadets like to keep up that robot look when they play, and it works for them. However, it was sort of awkward to see them try to rock out to "Malaguena" last year. They can play like nobody else, but it just looked unnatural to me. As for SCV, they probably have the most natural "performance" style in my eyes. They have some great closeups of the pit on last year's finals DVD where they were selling their show like crazy. Extremely fun to watch, but definitely not choreographed. One thing that does sort of get to me is "cheesy" visual type stuff. Things like high-fives in the middle of the show, flirting with random people in the crowd, etc. I've had to do that, and while the crowd loves it, I know that I personally would've preferred playing some more notes. Oh well..all for the sake of GE, right? At the DCI level, you become a performer so pulling the audience into the program is one of your responsibilities.

But yeah, for the record, if you watch some DCI pits, you'll see some smiles out there.

I guess I'm more of a robot since I've learned some under Giff (since he's at Cadets). I admit , I am a robot when I play, but I was just trying to clear up that choreographed movement doesn't equal performance. All of the ensembles I've been in have always been about being "natural" ,but my point is that it's something one can't teach and you have to go in pyschology to see what a student's problem is. It could be from their personality to not begining aware what they "REALLY" look like to maybe not being comfortable with the notes and not comfortable with the group. So many factors can come into play..just my oppion...just like how hotI think you look in you pic I'm out

Haha...gee thanks, DarkQuad. So you're learning from Giff? "Twist" and "flush", eh? Actually, when it comes to indoor, he does try to increase performance awareness. However, he only did so by telling us to emote and not exactly demonstrating, which would probably be more effective.

Anyway, I'll be watching both Allentown shows this weekend, and most likely I'll be concentrating on the pits, so I'll let you know if I see any cheese out there!

I would just like to say that I was new to the world of pit playing this year as I, a snare player, played Vibes for East Coast Jazz. Visually playing dynamics was one of the hardest things to learn. I felt it was totally unneeded as audibly there was no difference between myself and the person next to me. However, once I became more comfortable with it, I suppose the showmanship does make a difference.

So I guess I'm pro visual dynamics, Atleast in Drum Corps.
It's difficult to grasp at first, but worth the effort.

Really emote with that soft triangle part..... Thats what I think everytime I see something like that. I think visual dynamics is for the birds.... I believe in what comes naturally and being nose to the board at "pp" isn't something that feels natural. Not only do I think it looks stupid, but it affects your technique, which in turn afftects your sound. I don't think there is anything worse than seeing a pit "over achieve" the visual dynamics thing....