response to middle-aged man

With that an instrument is not a tool to create music. A performer is not a tool to create music. A composer is not a tool to create music.

Because music the elements of music is sound/silence, the tools that create music are any sound producers or guidelines for what sounds will be produced.
That means that each object of cd containing data, cd-player that reads the data and provides playback are tools to producing sound. And that sound can be interpreted as music. Thus allowing cd-players to be tools in creating music.

Nice response, Jake. I agree that music can only be created by the performer, the creation of music reserved as a human capability. However, the CD-player is just a method of producing what humans have created, sounds to be interpreted as music. Nevertheless, its outputted sound is derived (at an earlier date) from the creation of an individual or a group of people, and THAT is where the creation lies, not in the production of the sound. Hence, as Jake said, the cd-player is simply a tool for producing sound, as is any instrument, to voice the creation of music. So then it would be a tool, yes?

I think the areas of "making", "creating", and "producing" are all kind of in a muddy area so far. CD players, phonographs, tape decks, etc reproduce an already recorded sound. What about old-style player pianos? This is closer to an instrument actually being "played" than anything else I listed but is it creating music? I don't think so. I think the "creation" stage lies within the mind of the "composer" whether that be a person or not, or intentionally or not. There's also comparing cd players and the like to instruments. They all fall under the umbrella that they are making a sound. They all get "played" but in the case of an instrument the role the person has is key in creating the sound of that instrument(sound, not music). A cd player needs someone to push the buttons on it, but a cd player is really second-hand since it is simulating the sounds, not producing them as an instrument would. So maybe there has to be a second area of sound "producers" and sound "reproducers". Then again, you could consider a musician playing piece of familiar music to them to be "recorded" in the way that sheetmusic would be like a CD, it's just someone/something reading data and "reproducing" it. I think there is a difference in that one is "actual" sound and one is "synthesized" (maybe that's a bad word for it, but oh well) sound. I need to organize my thoughts on this whole "second-hand" sound idea....

I think you have made a good point indoorperc. I was thinking about a different way to put it. ANd you said it better with "the "creation" stage lies within the mind of the "composer"".
I feel a better way to put it would be the creation of music occurs when it is interpreted as organized in a musical way (based on the interpreter's mind)
So an ensemble is only making noise. It is in their minds and listeners that the sound is converted into music.


I was also thinking about trying to get a working definition started and see if we can compose a better form for it.

I would like to start with utmusic's of:

"Music is an intangible art, intentionally created through the combination of sounds and silence, created to serve a variety of purposes, and is ultimately interpreted by a listener by a standard of cultural or personal expectations (such as rhythm, melody, mathematical functions, emotions conveyed, emotions invoked, etc.)."

okay im sorry
maybe when i was saying all that from the first quote i should have said.
Rhetorically: With that an instrument is not a tool to create music. A performer is not a tool to create music. A composer is not a tool to create music.

I think all of those are tools.
Any object used to cause or guide the production of sound, Is a tool.

Also with the scientific definition of music there is no distinction between sound and music, or music and noise. So there must be interpretation present in the definition.

::places box around Middleage's Quote::
By that definition UTMusic, anything could be a tool. The fiberoptic cables that connect the recording equipment would be considered a tool. The air around the performer would be a tool. The light that illuminates the page of sheetmusic that they are reading, and by association the water that spun the turbines that generated that power to light the bulb. The clouds that dropped the rain to the place where it could spin those turbines would be tools. The mixing of the elements that created the water to go into the clouds... We can get as holistic as we want and eventually everything would become a tool that particpated in the creation of music. See how silly this gets?
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(forgive me, I don't know how to use the box quotes here, be imaginative with me)

The question isn't about what tools are necessary to create music. Of course any given environment or little nuance of difference can ultimately create a different experience of sounds to become interpreted as music.

The point is that tools are used by humans to create music. But, the art of music is something that is created and forged by the natural phenomena of sound/silence. Whether the sound is produced/recreated through the vibrations of a string or the reading of digital data, the ultimate result is the production of sound organized in a way that can be interpreted as music.

As I said many times, a CD player cannot CREATE music. A paintbrush cannot create a masterpiece. A cello cannot make notes into music. Yet, these things are applicable as tools to the creation of music. A CD player is a way to make "music" accessible, but in a sense, doens't every tool contribute in this?

So what if the "tools" to create music are vague? To limit tools would be to confine music to boundaries. I don't think "my definition" holds music to limits, but still sets general guidelines for how mankind interprets what is music from what is not.

Indoor - ::quotes::
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I think the areas of "making", "creating", and "producing" are all kind of in a muddy area so far.
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You're absolutely right. There are many inconsistencies as to who the creator is, and the relationship between how music is defined and the roles of the audience, the composer, & the performer. But, wasn't all of this addressed in my first post? I agree, we could AND should delve into this topic perhaps in more detail, but will doing so advance our search for a unique and authentic definition of "music"?

hmmm... The instrument produces the music, but the performer makes the instrument produce the music.

The definition of music being a sound that pleases a listener is not quite right because my mom hates DCI stuff, she hates it. Does that mean that it isn't music?

Music is made of multiple vibrations that occur over a length of time- I like this definition the best myself but then what distinguishes it from noise, or common sound?

I think that a CD player or a computer DOES produce music. I went to a school with a very strong TIMARA (Technology in Music and Related Arts) program, and was in fact one of the founders of TIMARA. I've seen people use CD players and computers to play music, and then played with other computers live to modify what was coming out of them. In that sense, a CD player is an instrument, because the sound is being modified. If you follow a slippery slope argument, you modify the sound coming out of the CD player simply by turning the volume up until it overdrives the speakers, creating a sound that wasn't originally intended by the performers. Following the slope, it can be argued that any change in volume is a modification of the sound, and thus you are using the CD player as a tool to produce the music you want.

On the topic of sheet music, I would say that it IS music, because when I see a piece, I can hear it in my head (not perfect, but a general idea). My mom, who cannot read music, would not think of sheet music as music, because it means nothing to her. If I had expert eyesight and could understand binary code, I would think of a CD in the same way I think of sheet music, so for the argument, I WOULD consider a CD to be a piece of music.

I forget who it was (someone 2 pages back) that said they wouldn't consider nature to be producing music, becuase nature is not orderly. Nature IS orderly, we just don't understand all the perturbations yet, nor will we really ever. But, nature is orderly enough to produce music, if not by itself, then with human interpretation. Imagine a cello player sitting on the beach, playing a song, using the waves crashing as his rhythm. Has the waves become an instrument, since the cello player is using them as a tool to make his music?

Many interesting questions, I believe we have only started to scratch the surface. This takes me back to that semester I took a philosophy of science course. One question: What is science? We didn't answer it.

On your consideration of sheet music being music, the only thing i can say is, "Is it the sheet music that is music, or is it the illusioned sounds you hear in your mind?"

When we hear sound are brain is interpreting those signals and frequencies and turning them into information that we understand as sound. Correct? Since we as humans, do so much hearing and listening, we can recall that information or data without it existing in the physical world. This means that we can hear without sound being made, or we can only imagine sound. For example, as you read this or if I was a close friend of yours and you had my voice memorized. Rather than just reading, in your head you can actually hear a voice speaking to you. Maybe you associate a tone of voice with what you are reading. Although there is no tone or sound, you still hear one.
I say all of this to prove that sheet music is just a guide to what you hear in your head. It is the imagined and recalled sound that is the music rather than the piece of paper.
I also say this because I am a firm believer that the presence of sound is needed to define music. A graphic is not music.
I guess I am also saying that the term Music is not Language. Because if it were language, then non-sound objects could be considered music.
I believe sheet music is another tool that helps produces music because it causes minds to recall and apply sound.