Moving from one school to the other I've come to the conclusion the students really don't effect how bad your program is. They just effect how good your year is going to be.

High school kids are high school kids. They're the same no matter where you go. The difference is the staff that teaches them.

STAFF has to build a program.

It has to start with your band director. He has to build respect. I think this takes years and years no matter who you are. Once you have students that love you, it wont stop because the freshmen will be influenced by the others and so on and so on. It just takes time.

Next comes staff. Band directors cannot do it by them selves. Even as a percussionist band director they more than likely do not have the time to be working with the drumline full time and you need others that can do it for you. The same goes for your auxilary and winds.

Your staff has to be respected too. If you have some "high school senior that is just coming back to help" being your drumline tech, chances are your lines going to blow. Unless that person is respected and gives as much time to the program as the musicians do.

Also having a band parents org. that gets along with the band director and THAT CARES ABOUT THE KIDS AND NOT THE MONEY THE KIDS OWE. This can be really importaint. At my school our "band moms" are there with us all through band camp and at every marching rehersal with bananas and frozen grapes. Band parents can add a sense of accomplishment no matter how bad you did or what place you came in because they think you did amazing no matter what. It helps.

I think if the STAFF builds a program based on respect it really works. People listen and stuff gets done.

The problem is band directors are afraid to spend money and think they can do it on they own, but they're foolish in my opinion.

Please share what your experiences have been as a high school student/band director/staff or anything. I love learning new things about this because I want to be a band director with a sucessful program one day.

And I guess this only goes for troubled programs with directors that care about marching season and don't know how to improve.

I 100% agree with you about respect. If the kids know you cant touch them they will push every button you have. But if they know they will be kicked flat out of band period for anything they will shut up. Also you get the cocky ones that quit then beg to come back, the rest of your kids will lose a lot of respect for you if you let that person back, cause they know you can quit and get back. I had to make a rough call on that one. I have seen some of the best directors in the State(Texas) have the worst band programs, cause they go to a new school laid back.

I also say demographics play a role in this as well. I have taught at very rich school and very poor govt subsidized school as well as everthing in between. I will have to say the best kids to have are in the middle to low middle of the economic scale. The rich ones you have kids who care and ones that dont equally. The parents are a nightmare to deal with, they will fight you tooth and nail why little johnny didnt make drum captian as a freshmen or something of the sort. The poor kids want something good but not willing to work for it. They will show initial effort then give up, they want results fast and these kids are constant roller coasters to teach. Also they expect everything handed to them, like hand them a card and POOF there Blue Devils. I have taught 3 years in a setting like this. The kids are nice, most very respectful just lazy no matter how much you motivate higher other techs, bring in big name caption heads etc. Also when they see success (trophy) they then peak and degress from there they think they are the stuff and thats what it is. Parents at this level can be tough too, nothing like the rich though. I say the middle to low middle is best based on what I have seen in Texas. These kids have parents who are consistently on there tails about being the best at anything they do, these parents and students strive for success and bragging rights, they are the hardest workers, and are patient to do the work it takes. Also you have any problems with a kid call one of their parents and that kid will be a saint the next day through the rest of his/her tenure at the school. The few down sides I know to this middle bias i have is because of the financial middles of these kids parents some parent orgs are big and some are small, this is due to both parents in a household having to work to support. Yes you have some problem kids but if you CONSISTANTLY demand respect you will get every one on the same page.

All in all all the kids from all backgorunds have the same traits and actions, etc nowdays. The full responsibility IS on the staff.... if your laid back when you first walk in the door expect to have a laid back program.

In 2002 I taught at 2 schools one season I took one of the lines to a promark sponsored drumline competition, my stdents from the other school came to watch. As the line competiting took 2nd place out of 16 lines the kids from my other school met me in the lot mad at me and said "what do you different with them than us?" I simply replied "nothing" "the difference with them is i pointed them in the same direction as you guys and they took it.. they get it" but you guys want to argue everything I say and not willing to put in half the effort, its start with showing up on time etc..." those kids simply looked at me with the tilted head retarted dog look, so my final reply was "SHUT UP AND DRUM thats whats different."

I still to this day tell this story at camps and clinics i work with. I refer to this story as a motivation to be willing to be patient, respectful, and just get the job done and it sinks in well everywhere i have said it. When people tell me man your line is good I ALWAYS reply with this, "Tell them (point to kids) I did nothing but point them in the right direction and they ran with it!"

Sorry to ramble in this post, I pretty much typed it as I thought of it. Reason I responded was I sit and ask my self at the end of most summer camps for area schools what the heck could I do different these kids dont get it.

I got plenty more to discuss on this but will leave it at the above for now. Also dont take my comment as written law that middle to mid-low class kids are the best. That ranking was based on the majority i have dealt with.

Such awesome middle class to mid-low class schools i refer too in texas are: Brazoswood, Langham Creek, Cy-Falls, Spring, San Antonio Roosevelt, Westfield, [b]penis[/b], Sealy, Cy-Springs, and many would like to deny but such north texas schools as L.D. Bell, Marcus, Lewisville, etc. This is based on a schools majority enrollment combined household income being a lil over or under 100,000$ a year.

all of the above My 2 cents.

I agree in final note with students do not set how bad the program is going to be, but how bad the year will be.

The tone set by the staff is extremely important, and I've got a great example to demonstrate: There are two high schools in the school district I work for. They're very similar demographically, and both started up marching programs at the same time three years ago.

In the first year of their marching programs, I helped at one of the two schools. After the first couple of rehearsals, the director took me aside and expressed his concern that I was being too hard on the students. I wasn't being a drill sergeant or anything, but he wanted me to be more tolerant of students' misbehavior and lack of effort. He was afraid that if I didn't coddle them, they wouldn't have fun and I'd run them out of the program. I countered that if I did coddle them, I'd be tacitly condoning unacceptable behavior, allowing them to develop attitudes that would be nearly impossible to break and getting us stuck in a cycle of mediocrity. We had a difference of opinion, so I moved on...

The following year, I started helping with percussion at the other school in town. The director had similar concerns, but after we talked it over, she gave me a little leeway. A few students did quit that first year, but we've gotten better and better and grown in size every year since -- claims the other school in town can't make!

As for socioeconomics... My experience is quite a bit different than Jereme's. My high school was poor, but we were successful. As an instructor, I've had my best competitive success (so far) at a rich school. My current students are mostly lower middle class, and I think we're on our way to building a successful program. If you can get students motivated and focused, the amount of money in their parents' bank accounts has little bearing on what you can achieve.

I'm not saying students from different backgrounds are the same, though. Students from different socioeconomic backgrounds tend to be socially different -- different attitudes, different interests, different criteria to earn respect, etc. Because of the social differences, not every instructor is cut out for every gig. One of my first instructing gigs was at a poor, urban junior high school. In my one year there, I failed pretty miserably. My brother, who's a whole lot more "ghetto savvy" than I am, took over the gig and built that program into something impressive. The students related to him a whole lot better than they did to me and it made a world of difference.

totally agree with every word you said sky...

it is different all over so thanks for not reading my post black and white.

The tone of the staff is huge!!! And condoning unacceptable behavior is a ticket down the drain. I can stand here and say been there done that... and have moved on... you do stand correct that being a drill sergeant can create same effects, but simply demand respect.

At my high school we have a range at different staff. A band director that threatens to kick you out, a percussion caption head that says he's dissapointed in you, a tech that yells at you and throws things at you and a tech who just gives you that whatever, you're an idiot look.

All together it gets our group to get better, in the last year with our new staff we've made great strides. Some people have quit and wanted to be let back on and weren't. Some people talked back to the intructors and we're put in their place, while others did evrything they could to get better and listen.

I personally get annoyed when I practiced over our break and thought i should have practiced more. I recently went to an entire drumline sectional (well some snare and tenors) and realized i could play and had more memorized more than all of them.

When I pointed this out they said "Well we all can't be like you Joe" Being sarcastic of course, but I was about to say, well, sorry i give a ****, I apologize for wanting to get better...It just annoys me when I think i should try harder (do to the fact that i wanna do drum corps and join a independent wgi line and one day be an instructor) and i find out not even the upperclassmen have tried harder (granted the upperclassmen is one junior and their is one sophomore besides me, everyone else is freshman and 8th graders)

I have read through most of what was said, and I agree with a lot of the things. Respect is key like was said, being laid back will intern produce a laid back program. Every camp I have taught I started with this

"I don't know about you guys but I'm here to have a good time... And a good time to me is watching you guys progress as musicians, a line and people. This first sectional is going to set the pace for how well we will do this week. We can goof off all week and get no where or we can buckle down and play some drums. It's up to you guys, listen to what I have to say, and do your best and wer'e all going to have a great time"

That's generally it anyway. I let them know what's up and then we can all have a great time. That first sectional is allways right down to business after the little "speach" i give we go right into the first warm-up/exercise. After the first break when the kids hook up and get set i tell them to relax and I go down the line and everyone introduces themselves, there class, and something about them (I know corny but it works) Then I do the same and give a bit of background of my performing and teaching experience and we go into the next warm-up. breaks tend to be a bit longer than normal the first day becuase of doing the little activities like that but I'm a firm believer of connecting with the students right off the bat. I think it helps that they know something about the instructor.

Now to why I think this works. I have been fortunate enough to teach both successful programs and unsuccessful to where I could try to see what things worked. the first time I taught I really struggling program was my second teaching gig and it was bad. Fortunately becuase I was the first real drum guy they had, I gained most of their respect immediately and they were all willing to learn but when you come across an undisciplined school your going to get students who resent you and talk back. When that happend at the school I was at I didn't deal with it he made a comment right after my beginning speach deal and he went right to the band director. The kids didn't like that but when we went down the line introducing ourselves and I showed general interest in them and asked them questions about themselves, it's like for the first time there was someone interested in them. More personal attention. After that initial connection was made things ran smoothly and they were ahead of the rest of the band the entire season.

I'm a firm believer in having the kids like me and being able to open up to me as well as respecting me. I think if you show the kids more attention and a personal interest in them, they are more willing to respect you and listen to your comments. The band director is the guy there to be the hard @$$ on the kids. Even when the band director is respected well the kids don't always agree so when a director has staff that the kids don't see as there "teacher" and respect them and connect with them the band directors decisions are more readily grasped by the students with those staff members backing them up.

MCP I work the same mojo as you. Some places it has worked some it has not. But I too have been at the school that has never had a drum guy and those kids to this day still come up to me all grown up and in/out of college and say thanks or whats up, or even hugs.

Yes let the band director be the @$$, its cool to be firm bu when it gets nitty grotty let the BD do the hit the road.

I dont exactly run the first rehearsal in your order (which is awesome i think) but I do pretty much the same speech and the getting to know them and me. I useually prolong the first speech out to teach Technique.

With teaching technique being said I have tried bringing in the new kids a week ahead and teaching them so we could jump right in with the rest of the line the following week, but... I have found its good to have them all there for this cause it will re-establish technique and end bad habits the upper-classmen developed over the summer or breaks hacking away.

I do interact a lot with my students, even they ones I have had to totally remove from band/drumline they still ackowledge me respecfully and we will sit and talk. One thing i dont do is hold grudges on the kids, and they have learned that/ When I say leave it at the door they know know I do and expect them to.

You know I have enjoyed this thread the most out of any on DLO. I also enjoy the fact that the kiddos can get in and read what is in our heads.

I agree with you i have also enjoyed this thread very much because everyone has a good long thought out response.

I do also agree that the drum instructor needs to be a friend sometimes but we had an instructor who did it all the time and he wasn't very good, sometimes you just have to balance it out.

I don't see it to much as being a friend, becuase in my opinion you can't be the students "friend" they have to realize that your the instructor. I make it so that they are comfortable with me, and see me more like a mentor than an authority figure. Someone they can look up to and respect in a more casual im not going to fail you for making a mistake kind of way.

I think my favorite part of teaching the way I do is seeing how well the kids do (most of the time, some cases my way doesn't always work) and it still be a relaxed setting.

I have taught with instructors who are really strict on the kids and the kids hate them and in-turn don't do well. I have also seen strict instructors and the kids do extremely well.

The best part is when those instructors come up to me and ask how my kids are so much more disciplined and do so well when it's such a relaxed rehearsal. I simply respond becuase that's what drumming's all about. Being relaxed.

A little off topic but that's how I relate teaching to playing. If the students are in a relaxed stress free atmosphere and not a "gosh if i mess up he's going to chastise me" atmosphere things will run smoothly they'll worry about playing in time listening in and that kind of thing rather then worrying about what I will do if it sounds like crap.

i see what your saying i guess that's what i meant.

Our instructor just acts like he's dissapointed or he'll get annoyed and it will make us work harder, the ones that didn't like that quit so it's all good now.