So, one of our staff (who happens to be very respected in the world of WGI, no names....) told us tonight that we are the "least disciplined drumline that he has ever worked with". And, these words stung. Especially because even though we're paying him to work for us, he hasn't gotten things done when they should be. We literally started learning our show a month ago, and our first show is tomorrow. This wouldn't be a problem if he would get our music to us on time, which by the way, he has had a habit this season of giving it to us two days before he plans on setting drill to it.

I just think his statement was kind of fabulous and uncalled-for. Sure, the guys get pretty stupid sometimes. But, maybe everyone would be a little more motivated if things didn't feel so rushed and hopeless. We literally got our music to the 3rd movement tuesday night, learned drill last night, and put music with it tonight. I don't think the day before a competition is the time to just be putting things together. But he can't seem to get his act together. He only comes twice a week, and he's usually late. This doesn't seem like very good discipline on his part to me :[

Oh, Dont worry, your not the only one with a bad instructor

Our "drumtech" this year, He didnt even play percussion, he marched tuba, and he was a strait jackass, what 20+ year old goes on dates with highschool seniors, and attempts to get in fights with drumline kids, over stupid things like harness's

He too also liked to pull the "well you guys dont know what your doing card" The best advice i can say if your looking for it, is basically work around him, thats how we handled it

Goodluck working it out though, hope you can manage with him

Talk to your BD about it. As a student, you can't really make an executive decision about rehersals and staff, but if your band director is cool, he will understand and he can talk to your instructor.

I know how you feel, he sounds a lot like our tech. Our tech is always late and always telling us how we don't work hard enough and that we aren't disciplined. He's never even marched before, his specialties are concert marimba and electronics. He did electronics and mics for SCV's pit at one point I think. He's amazing at marimba and he's a great pit tech, but when it comes to battery work, he doesn't know what he's talking about. It gets frustrating at times, especially since I can't go to our bd because he's even worse. He knows almost nothing about music, but that's a completely different story. Ok, I'm done, sorry for hijacking the thread but I just came from practice and had to get that off my chest. But anyway, you really aren't the only person with a bad tech, so go to your bd. Hopefully he's more competent than mine and he can do something about it. If that doesn't work, just do the best you can to try to work around it and get the job done.

I'm not looking to get rid of him. Honestly, he makes our line work. He sets our drill, he works in all of the visuals and effects (which is a big task-we have a magic show!), among other things. He's probably one of the most brilliant men in the business.

I just really don't appreciate him telling us that we've got commitment issues, when HE'S the one who hasn't given us his all this year. I just think he needs to step up his game before he's going to criticize the way we run things.

Maybe you are being entirely too sensitive about it? Maybe you guys are lacking in areas that he believes you can achieve great things in. Maybe he is right? Maybe you are the least disciplined line he has ever worked with. When he said that, did it make you want to do better? Or did you all immediately think he was wrong and wanted to go tell the band director about it? To me, if an instructor said that, I would be VERY motivated to become one of his best lines. If he is late with delivering music, then just make the best of it. Have everyone practice sight reading so that when they get a sheet of music they need to perform, then cant hack through it a lot easier. If he is late to rehearsal, then be rehearsing before he gets there. Warming up and repping through music should be easy, and you all should be able to do it on your own. So when he gets there, he doesn't need to get people to stop screwing around and such. He can go to doing whatever got him to become a great mind in WGI.

He obviously is good at what he does if he is a head instructor in the first place. I would conform to him as much as possible. Because if he is as successful as you make him out to be, then he must know what he's doing. I would just not give him a reason to call you undisciplined.

Ok well. . .

I kinda have to agree with Dragon on this one. . Just because from person experience I have had a few members tell me that I don't know what I am doing, etc. . . And I had told them that, they were very immature and needed to grow up a little. . I told them that I teach the exact same way at my other lines if not harder. They just gave plenty of excuses. I ended up quiting at that high school, due to multiple problems that were happening. They got another instructor. And I happened to work with one of my students at a resturant. And sure enough, towards the end of the marching season the student came up to me, and said "Will you come back next year? We hate our new instructor, and you really do know what you're talking about. We're sorry. . ."

So thats the short story of it all. . . .But I think you need to look at it from a few different ways. .

1. Be lucky you have an instructor. (one who you make out to seem like he does know what hes talking about)

2. Maybe he is right, maybe you are the least disciplined line he has taught. (Do you guys always wait for instructions or do you start things on your own)

3. Try to look at things from a positive approach. People have different ways of getting information across to you. And some ways might be "getting your music the day before you put in with drill"


So yah thats all i can think about for the most part right now. If i have anything else to add to that I will reply later.


But take it from someone who didn't really have an instructor in high school till his senior year pretty much. You should be happy with what you have, because I am jealous of all people who have Instructors at your High School. (especially ones that you say, do know what they are talking about) Take what you have and run with it. . . Because what you have some people might not have.

I'm going to disagree on many of these aspects. A person who takes pride in what they do would get their work done on time and notify someone if they were going to be late to rehearsal. I always have the numbers of staff and my section leaders on my cell phone and I always advise them if I'm going to be late. Now, if practice starts at 230 daily and I cannot get there until 245, I make it clear to be warmed up by the time I get there. However, if he's just showing up late because thats what he does, then there's no excuse for that.

Same goes for the music. If I tell a group or individual that they will have music on 7/11, they will have music on 7/11 - no questions asked. That is part of my commitment to them and I honor it. One particular instance, I had computer troubles and half of a piece was missing - the computer didn't save properly. I received this call at a DMB concert and when I got home at 2am, I started writing and it was in his email by the time he woke up.

Why do that? Pride in what I'm doing. If you don't have pride and drive... don't instruct.

Cadet, i understand everything you said and agree. I was just covering the other side of the argument.

Well a crappy instructor is better than no instructor, but if he's going to show up late and call the line the least disciplined he's worked with, he has no right to do that. If he can't be there on time or provide an explanation to the students or say to them that he will be late to every rehearsal, to me that shows he isn't disciplined and if you're not disciplined, how can you expect students to be? Lead by example.

As far as the phone numbers thing, I teach many of the students in my line privately, so its more than a rehearsal issue. Every parent gave them to me to keep open lines about lessons and cancellations and such.

It is a good point about numbers, though. Then again, if you're professional enough (or have common sense), you'll never put yourself in a remotely jeopardizing situation of any kind.

Nonetheless, there's no reason not to have staff phone numbers.

True, and I agree with you as well. But as Dragon was saying, Just trying to look at both sides of the story.

And staff numbers I have, like band directors, but right now I am the only Perc person at one school, and 1 of 2 at another. And I am professional enough, but with everything that has been going on and still being SOMEWHAT young. . . With what has happened in the past few months here in my state, I'm not willing to take that chance.

If I were to give lessons as you do, then that would be different. I do always have access to home numbers though, just in case I do ever need to get in contact with the member or their parents. But yes staff members numbers are always a must.


But I have agreed with everything you have stated, not looking to cause any problems, just trying to look at things from the other side!

Well, if he started out being late, then we have a problem.

But if he was doing his job and the kids were screwing up and being the least disciplined line he has ever taught, making him not feel welcomed or respected, then thats where my side of the argument comes into play.

I would say the best thing to do is prove him wrong with actions. Be warmed up when he gets there, soak up music and drill like a sponge (I'm not saying the time frames you're given are really enough, but it's possible to learn a show very quickly if not perfectly if you have the right mindset). If you take initiative, you'll leave no room for criticism. I bet if your line DISPLAYS the professionalism you seek, you'll get it. =0

Let me chime in on this... Not only is this "tech" one of the most respected people in the WGI/Indoor activity, but he also sits on the WGI Board of Directors, the WGI Steering Committee and holds a full time job in the music industry. If he was late it was because he has a "real job." Showing up to rehearsal without music learned, without drill books, without music, and then complaining about it IS complete lack of discipline. Talking back to an instructor IS complete lack of discipline. Learning drill two days before a show is not abnormal. I have seen groups where the staff set new drill and made major music changes ON THE DAY OF FINALS. They were still succesful. Quit whining about how hard the staff is, and show up to rehearsal prepared. Success comes when PREPARATION meets OPPORTUNITY.

Are you the person they're referring to? I ask because that is the only way you could be making excuses for lateness.

The group didn't have the music learned because the instructor never got it to them in a timely fashion... and because of that, the students have a lack of discipline?

Please, explain your logic, especially when an instructor's lack of timely preparation is the result of the student's lack of timely preparation.

I am not the person they are referring to.

I am, however, the head percussion director. I am the person that had to deal with them not having set books, not having music, not being prepared at rehearsal. I am the person that had to deal with their poor behavior ON and OFF the court. I am the person that had to deal with the transportation department after they trashed a bus on the way home from a competition. I am the person that had to rally this group from mediocrity to a 3rd consecutive state championship. This "tech" they speak of was hired by me and reported to me, not to the students. The students complaints of this tech being late are unjustified. They don't know the full situation nor do they need to know. They should be gratefull that they had a staff at all. Some groups have none.

I agree, we have none, even though we made superior ratings

Indeed, they should be grateful to have a staff. However, if your staff is creating feelings of animosity and discontent as mentioned in this thread, then you might want to reconsider your staff. At the same time, if they're having issues getting materials done in timely fashion, as you've indicated, you might want to reconsider your staff.

Perhaps proper motivation, instruction and guidance would have prevented some of the behavior and performance issues. After all, Proper Prior Planning Prevents PEE Poor Performance... and if the staff can't plan to get materials done on time, how can they expect students to learn it in a timely fashion?

"Lead by example" doesn't just apply to students. As an instructor, I make absolutely sure that I'm prepared. Music and charts are done early. Changes are made with enough time not just to teach, but to reinforce. I make it a point to be early to rehearsals and to stay late. The bottom line is that I know students learn from me -- not just musically, but in a lot of ways, including work ethic. If I don't give it my all, they likely won't, either.

Now, with that said, there are instances where things don't go exactly as planned. Like most instructors, I've got a day job and family commitments that occasionally cause me to be late. But I work hard to ensure those are very rare occasions and I give advance notice via phone calls to make sure my students have the change of plans. In the rare event I'm late or unprepared, I disagree with beedubya's assessment that the students "don't need to know the situation". I want my students to know the situation when it might seem that I'm not living up to the same standards I ask them to abide by. I use it as an opportunity to teach them how strong of a commitment I expect by showing them how critical a circumstance needs to be for it to be a valid excuse. A trip to the convenience store for an after-school snack isn't an acceptable excuse for being late, nor is detention since they should've been responsible enough to avoid it. On the other hand, giving a corrective dose of insulin to my diabetic 4-year-old is a valid reason for running a few minutes behind.

I don't mean to argue with beedubya or discount his experience or opinions. There's likely more to the story than can be easily discussed in a forum like this one. But it appears we disagree on at least a few things and I figured I'd throw another experienced opinion into the mix.

You need to talk to the BD about this situation. The BD (I'm the BD is paying him) will discuss your concerns with him and let him know he needs to tighten up or change his ways of doing things. After all, to most high school drumlines, learning music and drill in one month for a competition is pretty ridiculous. He needs to get his priorities in order.
Mainly, talk to the BD and get him/her to talk to him about the situation.

Well learning drill a month before a competition isn't that ridiculous. There are some groups that don't even have all of the drill finished until a few days before the competition.


(let me know if i misunderstood what you meant there. . . cause i might have. . .im super tired and its been a long day. . ha)

beedubya, i understand your pain man!!! I work down the road from this school, they are an excellent percussion program, and beedubya is an excellent director. Do i agree to his excuses yes and no, but i understand his job position for the school district he works for. Win a state championship 3 times then get told your job is being cut then the district has the nutz to ask him to bring his drumline to a board meeting to shake hands and tell him job well done him.

On the side of Sara there are some guys in our area with a "respected name" in both wgi, and DCI and these guys frequently burn bridges with students and directors. The person in question is not one of those.

The person in question has been great he does hold a full time with extra hours job, is on the wgi steering commities etc etc also with 2 kids under the age of 5 and still offeres his expertise and guidance to about 3 or 4 area ensembles including Imperial Percussion. He has been a huge help to our organization with what free time he does have. I know IPT didnt field this season but without this person we would not be in the positive business situation we are in now.

Yes he is late, but he doesnt have to help nobody if they want to complain. He has a welth of knowledge in the indoor activity and I have yet to see him flat out refuse assistance to anyone who asks him.

Sara be happy you do have a staff, cause I am all by myself where I teach just down the road from your school and it is really hard on me and my students but we make it work.

My 2 cents. (with the caveat that as others have said, we don't and can't know the whole story)

It sounds like there are 2 primary problems:

Students who sound like they need to straighten up -- for trashing a bus I would've kicked them out and given them an F for the rest of the year! At a minimum, they need to have the necessary materials with them and make an effort to learn the music. It may be necessary to remove the troublemakers -- I don't care how talented a student (or anyone else) is, sometimes they really *aren't* worth the headaches they cause (heck, flunk 'em a couple of times and maybe they'll figure it out.)

An instructor who may have bitten off more than he can chew -- I'm sure it was with the best of intentions, but this may be one more job than he can realistically handle. A great instructor/arranger who just can't be relied upon to have the materials they are responsible for ready more or less on schedule most of the time is more of a headache than a mediocre instructor/arranger who can. It's *not* an overall poor reflection on the instructor (well, not if this is the first year this has happened), he just overestimated the amount of time he had to commit and perhaps should cut back next year.

Other stuff:

I don't know in what circumstances the "least disciplined line" comment were made under; in a heated tone it's a no-no, in a reasonable "hey, folks, this is the way it is" monologue it may just be something that needed to be said.

Unless the line is one of the insanely competitive programs (I think of them as "Drum Corp Lite") I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to learn music and drill to a competitive level in a week or two. It sounds like this program falls somewhere between "highly competitive" and "recreational" and I wouldn't expect them to be happy to drop everything to learn new music and drill just because the instructor was too overloaded to finish it on-time -- I'd be peeved, too. (I mean really, "I can't work at the Dairy Queen tonight, I have to practice my music." is not a formula for long employment.)

I totaly agree. If someone tells me that I dont get mad I set out to prove them wrong. I have only marched one year but I am one of the best percussionist we have. Only becasuse if someone makes a comment that I dont like. I make sure to fix that problem so I dont get it again.